Drew Shula on Building a Net-Zero Future That Actually Works

What will it take to move net zero from an ambitious goal to the way we actually design and operate our buildings?

Drew Shula is the founder and CEO of Verdical Group, a sustainability consulting firm focused on decarbonizing the built environment. Since founding the company in 2012, Drew has worked to advance greener buildings through engineering services, green building certifications, sustainability strategy and net-zero consulting. He is also the founder of the Net Zero Conference, one of the world’s largest events dedicated to building a net-zero future.

In this episode, Drew breaks down what net zero means and why buildings are such an important part of the climate conversation. He and Lexy discuss the work involved in making buildings more sustainable, how organizations can turn environmental goals into practical action and the role green building certifications can play in that process. Drew also shares the story behind the Net Zero Conference and why education, new ideas and collaboration are essential to accelerating climate progress.

Whether you already work in sustainability or are simply curious about how the places where we live and work can become part of the solution, this conversation offers a practical look at the path toward a lower-carbon future.

Listen to the full episode and subscribe to The Lexy Show wherever you get your podcasts.

Social Media

Drew Shula: Instagram @sustainability_ceo | LinkedIn Drew Shula
Verdical Group: Instagram @verdicalgroup

If you enjoyed this conversation, be sure to subscribe to The Lexy Show, leave a review, and share this episode with someone who's ready to make more mindful choices for themselves and the planet. For more information visit https://lexysilverstein.com/

Transcript

That was me, age seven. I thought fashion was magic. Turns out it's a lot more complicated than that. I had a blog at seven talking about clothes. Back then, I didn't know about greenwashing or fast fashion or what it actually costs to make a $5 shirt, and now I do, and I'm trying to do better. So welcome to The Lexi Show: Fashion That Gives a Damn. I'm Lexi Silverstein, and this show is for anyone who loves fashion and is done pretending the industry is fine. Every week, we go deeper so you can shop smarter, spend better, and stop getting played. Now, let's get back to today's guest. Today I'm talking with Drew Schueler, founder and CEO of Vertical Group, a nationally leading sustainability consulting firm specializing in green building certifications, engineering services, ESG, net zero strategy and events since 2012. He is also the founder of the Net Zero Conference, one of the world's largest events focused on building a net zero future. Drew, welcome. How are you doing?  I know that you had mentioned this in the beginning, but you grew up in Maine and have said that being surrounded by nature shaped the way that you think about sustainability. So was there, like, a specific moment when this kind of, sustainability, the environment, all this stuff became personal to you? I love that question, Lexi. I certainly have it growing up in a real small town called Belfast, Maine. You know, not, not a lot of people have even been to Maine, um, so I'm always excited when people have been here. But it's, it's a, you know, it's a big state with very few people, about a, about a million people in the whole state. It's absolutely beautiful, uh, nature here. And the Maine woods are famous. You know, Thoreau lived in the Maine woods and built his cabin. And, , just growing up in Maine, I was ... I grew up 10 miles outside of the nearest town. Uh, we had 40 acres of land. We had a beaver dam on the property. , There was foxes that lived across the street and all this wildlife, and I would just roam around outdoors for hours and hours as a kid just walking through the woods. So I had this, like, really deep connection to nature. I just, that's just how I grew up. And, the seasons and, I don't know, it just was so natural to wanna do work that helped to protect the environment. I don't think it was, like, a specific moment ever, but just that, like, deep connection from growing up as a little kid all the way through high school kinda running around in the woods. I love it. It's so funny 'cause I was just in Florida where my parents live there now, and, my friend from LA came and visited with me, and there were so many thunderstorms. And my mom thought it was, like, the funniest thing ever because obviously I grew up with thunderstorms, we don't get them that often here in LA. Yeah. And so we would, like, sit outside on the balcony with, all the windows open, and we would just watch the thunderstorm happen. And then we would go on these, like, whole, like, hour-long conversations about the difference in, like, things that I had growing up in DC from, like, LA, where I was like, "Did you guys not have fireflies?" We would walk our dog, and, the woods next to us had all these fireflies, and we would go and catch them. And apparently those aren't really a thing in LA. Yeah. And I was like- Those blow your mind, right? Like, they're so crazy ... I was like, "What?" That's, like, the first time I realized that museums weren't free everywhere because I grew up going to museums all the time in DC, and they're all free in DC. Hmm. Interesting. And then I went to a museum when I was traveling somewhere, and I was like, "I have to pay money for this?" And I called my mom, and I was like, "This is the craziest thing ever, I've ever heard of." And she was like, "I actually hate to tell you this, but that- ... is so standard. You are the crazy one because you live in a place where it's, like, free." Yeah. So- No, I love the, nature, connections, those kind of mind-blowing moments, right? Especially as a kid if you look at a, a firefly on your finger, and it's just, lighting up. It's amazing. Nature's incredible. There's a, concept or a thought that nature has had, like, 4 billion years of R&D or whatever to, like, perfect its systems, and it's so true. And that, that translates into fashion and every other industry as well, that we're still... I feel like we're learning to become better and, and more perfect and more like nature in how we design our systems. Yes. I love that. Well, you've described starting Vertical Group as an act of architectural disobedience which is an interesting phrase. So what were you trying to push back against? Yeah. That's, so architectural disobedience, plays on civil disobedience, which of course is, like, non-violent, peaceful kind of pushback. And within architecture, I was just trying to kind of get at, Pushing back against the norm essentially, because there's so much, like, just repetitive behavior in the building industry of just doing things the same thing, same way they've always been done, , not changing. And with the climate crisis, you know, we uh, it's demanding that we do change, right? So that's a problem. Like, we need to adapt and change how we do things to become more sustainable because the way that we've been doing things is not, not working well for us. Architectural disobedience is trying to ask people in the building industry to, change and, and push back against the, like, day, like, day-to-day of, of repetition and, let's adapt and, and solve this together I love that. That's so important. Well, we know that net zero buildings are achievable but they're still far away from, like, the norm. So from what you've seen, what's kind of preventing the industry from adopting them more widely? Yeah. Great question. So net zero buildings, just to define that, it's like the energy load of the building, your plug loads, everything you plug in, turning on your lights, running your heating and cooling the entire energy use of the building all added up together is your energy load. And a net zero building generates as much energy as the building needs on site. So it's typically solar panels. So you just have enough solar panels on your roof or over your parking or whatever it is. You're generating all the renewable energy you need on site to, to power the building. We know exactly how to do it. Like you said, we are not doing it nearly enough. There, I think less than 1% of buildings are net zero buildings right now. But the building industry accounts for something like 42%, more than 40% of global carbon emissions, which is wild. Like, and I'm sure fashion has a, a big footprint too. Or a lot of people know that, like, transportation has a huge footprint. But think about the entire Earth, every country in the world, every industry 40% of the entire problem is coming from buildings. So a lot of it's heating and cooling buildings and using fossil fuels to do that. So one of the biggest moves, um, we can make is to use renewable energy, so s- solar, geothermal, whatever it might be, uh, wind and power our buildings from these natural sources and get off of fossil fuels. So the biggest barriers I would say are, like, first of all, it's just education. People don't know to ask for it- Mm-hmm ... is a problem. They don't, they've never heard of a net zero building. They don't know what it is. They maybe have even heard of a green building, but there, there's confusion around what that means. Um, you can't achieve something or get what you want if you don't know what to ask for. So, like, people just need to be educated about, about these issues. But then even if they do understand it and they, they have a, you know, have a deep understanding of it, there's still a barrier around first cost. Building a building without solar panels is lower cost than putting them on. So that, like, that first cost is a hurdle for some budgets, you know, as a developer puts a budget together to, to build a new building. But there's gonna be a payback over time, right? So if you have, you know, enough time, you know, five, 10 years you'll actually be making money off the solar panels. But a lot of developers unfortunately have really short time horizons, you know, a couple years they aren't able to work with anything longer than that. So that can be a barrier for some projects as well on that, on that first cost Yeah, definitely. Well, I think that's something that is kind of a theme when it comes to sustainability a lot, where it's like it might cost you a little bit more money in the very beginning- Yeah ... but in the long run it's gonna save you money, and I think that's, like, how I try to- Mm-hmm convince people about investing into, you know, like, more sustainable fashion brands, where it's like- Yeah ... " Ah, the white T-shirt's gonna be, like, $80 or something." And that's maybe a lot of money for, for a white T-shirt, I totally get that. But in the long run, you know, you're gonna have... Because you spent more money on it, you're gonna take better care of it. You're gonna make sure you are getting as much use out of it, and then you're gonna wear it for the rest of your life because you're doing that and you're and you invested in something good quality that's gonna last you a long time. And then your cost per wear is gonna eventually, over the time of your life, is gonna be down to, like, less than a fricking cent. So- Yeah ... versus if you bought, like, you know, a $2 white T-shirt from SHEIN, and then you're gonna have to keep buying that $2 white T-shirt every time it gets a stain on it or it gets a hole because it's made out of- Mm-hmm ... really horrible, fabrics and stuff, and not put together well because the garment workers aren't getting paid correctly. And so I think that- Mm-hmm ... or, like, a, an example that I've talked about before is, The example I use is the set of a movie, but I guess it can really be anything, where it's like if you have an office and you give everyone in your office a reusable water bottle rather than buying plastic water bottles, like, that's gonna save you more money in the end even though Mm-hmm. Over time ... the reusable is more expensive in the beginning. Yeah. No, thank you so much for pulling out those threads, 'cause there's so many similarities. Like, we're both in the design world. Like, you're from the fashion side of it and I'm more from the architecture side. So I... That's what I studied in school was architecture. And there are a ton of, , overlaps in the thinking between these two worlds because they both involve design, I think. So whether you're designing a garment or a building, there's a lot of the same thoughts. So what you're getting at though is that, yeah, there, that first cost for quality, like, you pay more for quality, right? But then you have a better thing for the long term, and that's a trade-off that as a country, right, the US, and I think globally as well but in general, people are taking the opposite approach of, like, buying the lowest cost, cheapest thing, and then continuing to do that over and over and over, and that's creating all these problems of waste. Like, nature doesn't operate that way. If we're trying to use biomimetic thinking and, like, nature as our teacher, , nature recycles everything. Everything's compostable. It goes back into the same system , a tree falls down, it composts, it helps grow a new tree. Like, we need our- Our systems in fashion and buildings to work in the exact same way. It, but, and we're nowhere near there yet, but we're making some strides to, to get in the right direction. Yeah. Completely. That's, that's all that matters at the end of the day. At least we're taking those, those steps even if they- Right. E- exactly. And it's just about how fast we go now. And it's so hard probably for you t- I'd love to hear your thoughts on this as well, but, like, for me it, it feels so slow-moving every year. It's like, God, we know what we need to do. We need to all just do it. A- and it, but, and it's, like, slow going. But at the same time, there is a lot of change happening really fast, like we kind of talked a little bit about earlier. But how do, how does it feel to you? Does it feel like fashion industry is changing fast or slow? Ugh. Well, it's changing really fast in some aspects, and then also not fast enough in other aspects. Like, sometimes I'm seeing so many more, and also, I mean, like, obviously I'm, like, looking for it a little mo- more. My for you page is gonna hit me with everything sustainability, 'cause it knows that that's what I'm into. Yeah. But I'm seeing so many more small businesses and so many more businesses that are, like, making changes. And I think in America it's not moving quite as fast as I would like it to be. But, makes sense for what's going on in America right now. But, like, France is really kicking butt- Hmm ... right now in terms of the fashion industry. Like, they just released something that is, like, banning influencers from promoting super fast fashion brands like Shein and Temu and stuff. And so I'm like- Really? ... that is amazing. Awesome. And those are, like big, huge wins that we need. But then- Hmm ... it's also, like, the fast fashion industry just keeps getting faster and faster. Hmm ... so it's a little push and pull. But I think the more we talk about it and the more that, people get intrigued by it or learn more about it, like, the more we're gonna keep on seeing change. And I, I know that as much as fast fashion is growing, not so much as necessarily, like, sustainable businesses but inherently sustainable, so are a lot of secondhand apps and websites. Mm-hmm. Like, secondhand shopping is so huge right now. And I believe, like, Vinted just became one of the most downloaded apps or something like that. Oh, wow. Okay. Um, so we're- Awesome ... we're getting places. But on that note, the fashion brands, fa- a lot of fashion brands love promoting their, like, sustainable stores and offices and warehouses. But how much does a greener building matter if the company inside is still overproducing and encouraging overconsumption? That's a really good question, too. And it's complicated, I would say cause there's a lot of companies that make big negative impacts and no matter what industry they're in. And we have to decide if we should help green them or if doing that is sort of just enabling them- Mm-hmm ... if you will, so, like, we, my company, Vertical Group, we had an internal debate with our team about this issue related to us working with a utility in LA called SoCalGas. It's the local natural gas utility. So natural gas is a fossil fuel just like coal and o- and oil. And, um, they were a sponsor of our annual NetZero conference for some years. And they became the biggest sponsor, and they were getting a lot of benefits from that, speaking at the conference, and having their logo in our, website and marketing materials, and things like that because they were a sponsor. And this was maybe I don't know, probably s- maybe five or six years ago at this point, we had the big internal debate around this issue. Are we, by taking their sponsorship money, are we helping SoCalGas improve and do better or are we just enabling them? And in the end we decided that we're sort of helping them greenwash. By, by taking the money and putting their logo on our stuff, we're helping enable them to keep having this negative impact for longer, and that's not what we wanted. So I'm super proud of where we ended up in that decision, and we decided to make a formal policy as a company to no longer accept money from fossil fuel companies. So we cut off our, our event sponsor- ship from SoCalGas, and again, this was about five years ago. So we've had a, you know, bunch of proposal opportunities that have come up through the years for building projects and things that were related to fossil fuel companies that we've turned down and said no to. And it's been many hundreds of thousands of dollars through the years that we've just had to walk away from. But it really feels like we're doing the right thing by not helping support or promote or help them greenwash in the fossil fuel industry. That's a pretty extreme example, right, with fossil fuel companies. But there's so many other shades of that, or the, like, and there's gray area, right? Mm-hmm. So what are... You're, you might be referring to, like, a, say if there's a fashion brand that, say it's fast fashion, right? So, you know, may they might have a big negative impact with their clothing, but with their buildings, if they have, like, a LEED platinum, you know, super high performance building, the, the building then is having a much lighter footprint than it would otherwise. So that's a really good thing for them to have a green building. Will save a lot of energy, a lot of water. But yet you're still then enabling them to market around that and appear to be green in their building even though their actual day-to-day of, all the product they're shipping out is extreme, you know, creating extreme waste and extreme problems. It's a thorny issue. I don't know if you have any thoughts on... It's, it's difficult to figure out what path to take to be ethical, but also, you know, you gotta be a, a for-profit business as well. It's like, it's everything you just said. It's like, it's a, it's a tricky thing, and maybe it's honestly just like case by case bas- basis, where it's like I never wanna n- you know, not encourage a brand to try and be more sustainable, but I think you can tell when people are doing it for the right reasons. Like, what y- Yeah ... everything you were just saying is, like, such a great example of like, "No, we're really in it because we care about this and we wanna make a difference," because y- you're stepping away from something that is a lot of money and is a big deal- Yeah ... because it didn't necessarily align. And I think if a company, you know, there's a difference, and you can kinda tell where, like, a company, you know, they're releasing like a, an eco-friendly line but then, like, everything else in their store- Right ... is unsustainable. That's like what the, the fossil fuel companies do that too. Yeah. They'll have, like, these little tiny... By their total revenue it'll be, like, less than 1% of their total revenue is the solar company or something, and then, like, 95% of their marketing is about the solar stuff that they do even though, like Yeah ... it's all, it's all just oil or whatever. Exactly. Yeah. Exactly. So I see what you mean. It's, it's really distracting, and that's a huge problem overall in the world is, is greenwashing and, 'cause re- you know, regular day-to-day consumers are c- really confused by it. It's super confusing e- even for you and I, right? We see this stuff every day and w- I still get confused regularly about, like, what am I looking at? Is this legit? Is this real, or is this just, like, total BS? You know? So, uh, looking for certifications is really helpful. Um, like legit, trusted certifications. You know, if companies or products have those it can really help, help you, help pe- consumers just understand if it's, like, really a good thing or not. Yeah. No, definitely. I think that's a, great little piece of advice, and I think, like what you're saying, it's like when I get... When I watch a video and I realize later that it was AI, and I'm like, "Damn." "No, I am no better than..." I'm making fun of my, like, parents who are like, "Look at this thing- Right and it's AI." And then I literally two seconds later get got by AI. And I'm like, "Okay." Yeah. Yeah. I have no leg to stand on, where it's like sometimes- Yeah ... the greenwashing is fooling me, and I'm actively in this, in this industry, and I'm actively doing research about it. So- Yeah ... I can completely understand how, as a consumer you could, who's not necessarily researching this every single day, you could get confused by the greenwashing. And I, I think, like you said, like certifications there's research to be done, like if I, I'm just like if a company doesn't flat out say pretty much... Like, if they are sustainable, they're gonna say everything. They're unethical, like they're gonna put it all out there. Yeah. And that's definitely a good way of like knowing Yeah, just that they're being transparent and- Exactly showing their data or, like, I love the clothing brand Patagonia. And I- they've been a huge model for me in creating my company, Vertical Group, which is 14 years old now. I really look to Patagonia and their founder, Yvon Chouinard, so much, who also was actually born in Maine. Oh. So I love Yvon. But he's older now. I don't know. I think he's probably in his 80s. He's, you know, he's pretty much retired at this point. But yeah, what, what he built with Patagonia as a sort of ethical clothing company, they're extremely transparent to the point where I love that they even say publicly, like, "We're nowhere near where we need to be," right? They, they share the data and they say, like, "We're still making a big negative impact even though we're doing all these positive things and programs and sourcing of, materials," all the, all this stuff, but they still make a negative impact, and they say that. And I love that they're so transparent about that. It's really powerful. Yeah. Exactly. I mean, I think, like, that is also just such an important thing to acknowledge, where it's like, you know, we're trying our best, and we can acknowledge that we're not necessarily perfect everywhere. Like, I think that is so important to shout out in sustainability as well because I think, like, it can be really daunting to get into this field and be like, "I must be perfect, and I can never create waste ever." Mm-hmm. And I'm like, no, we are human. We're human beings. Yes. I'm someone who, again, is a sustainable person, and I care about this, and I, I practice this in my day to day. And every now and then, I drink from a plastic water bottle because- Yeah ... I forgot my reusable one somewhere. Yeah. Like, I'm not a perfect person. I'm a person at the end of the day. Nobody is. So I think it's, like, important to, I... God, I used to say this all the time, and then I, I was, like, doing really good about not saying it every podcast, but it's like you gotta pat yourself on the back for the things you're doing right. And not beat yourself up too much on the things that, you know, you still need to improve on. I mean, I s- agree so much with that. It's really about the governments and the corporations being accountable for their own stuff. It shouldn't be... The onus should not be on the individual consumers. Uh, and what I've heard is that, I don't know about the, the truth of this, I would need to research it more, but I think it's from the fossil fuel industry sort of purposefully I think they created a tracker at one point years ago that was like, for individual consumers to understand their carbon footprint. So it was, like, pushing it back onto individual people to think about their own footprint, which is im- it, it is important too, but, like, the scale of an individual versus, you know, an Exxon, right? The- you can't even compare the negative impact that these big companies and governments make, um, 'cause they're s- they're so massive compared to in- individuals. Um, so that's where the real change is gonna happen. That's where the, the... In order to solve the climate crisis, that's what's necessary to fix and change, are the, the big companies and the governments. And, and ju- and if, if you're focused on individuals, you're not doing a bad thing trying to change individuals. That's still great. You know, there's still posit- positivity there, but it's just, it's not gonna solve the whole issue. At the biggest scale it's, it's gotta be much larger than the individual. So that... And that's where it kinda... My work is, like, B2B, so we're, you know, my company's working with other companies to help them green their, their buildings. A lot of, like, corporate real estate buildings, um, where we're trying to do that. Or working with a wh- a building portfolio, right? Where we might work with one owner who owns, like, 100 buildings all around the country, and we're helping them green all those at the same time. So similarly, like a utility program for us, right? We're working with some of the Southern California utilities, and that impacts, you know, millions and millions of people that are all within the utility territory, rather than just, like, one individual homeowner or something working on one home. So when you have those scale opportunities they can be huge. There's probably... I, I don't know. You'll have to tell me, Lexi. Are there things in the, in the fashion world that are, like, groups for lots of different companies or something, or, like, industry-wide association groups, things like that, that help to try to, like, change everything at, like, the bigger scale? Yeah. I mean, there are a lot of... Oh, God, there was a huge loss recently, actually, of this organization called Remake that I was a part of when I was in college. And it was essentially just, like, getting individuals who are interested in this together, having them on, social media together, and then making-- like, seeing what people can do everywhere. And they recently just, I don't think, got enough funding and had to kinda close down, which was a hard hit for the fashion industry. But- Hmm ... you know, hopefully there... There, there is still other ones, um, which is great. And I think hopefully there's just maybe room for if, when there's a loss, someone else can kinda go in there and create a new one. But there are definitely... I mean- I have found so many amazing, like, like-minded individuals that are able to... were able to connect from, like, all over the world. And I mean, even, like, this podcast has been such a great way of, like, every time after I get up, like, done with one of these episodes, I'm like, "Oh my God, I, like, feel better." Like I was feeling really anxious- Yeah ... about the world. Actually, this- And now I feel better. This podcast is a great example. Instead of just, working with one person, indi- individual, you're reaching, you know, however many thousands of people. That's, that's a perfect example of it too. That's awesome. And what you're doing in the conference any- anything- Yeah ... anything to get people together to talk about this in, like- Mm-hmm ... a way that's inspiring and to get people to learn more I think is just, like, so, so, so effective. 'Cause even, climate anxiety is a big topic nowadays. It's something that I experience a lot, especially working in this field. I have so many people that I have talked to that, like, stopped working in the environment 'cause they were just like, "It's such a dark place to be." Yeah. I'm like, "Yeah, you're telling me." Yeah. But I, like, have literally a conversation with one person or I tell one person that I, like, thrifted an outfit, and I make it fun. And they're like "Oh, I can do that too." And it, it makes me feel like I'm, like, really making a difference. And so I think everything you're doing, the conference the things like this, like- They just, they make me feel less, less anxious about our future. And I can't even remember if we mentioned the conference yet, but Net Zero Conference coming to LA Convention Center October 8th this year, 2026, and Lexi Silverstein will be speaking there on a panel. We're so excited to have you with us. I'm so excited to be there. So tell us about, uh, tell us about that and what can people expect if they attend. Yeah. Check out the website, netzeroconference.com. But yeah, just like we're talking about, it's, it's a big convening of sustainability professionals. It's lots of B2B people at the conference, so it's a lot of building industry folks. But it's, it's also broadened beyond that to cover fashion and your world, Lexi, , as well as, like, tech and other industries. But yeah, it's, just a big conference. It's over 1,000 people, a bunch of speaker sessions, keynote speakers. Uh, we give out awards every year. And then there's even fun things like yoga, and we're gonna have, like, an expo hall. We got puppies in the expo hall this year, and just lots of fun things. But here, it's in LA, so, , if anybody can come out. We've g- we've had folks from almost every US state there now and a bunch of countries, so it's been, , growing and a lot of, momentum around net zero. Despite the fact that still, you know, less than 1% of buildings are net zero it's helping to spread that message. And, change might feel like it's happening slow, but it is happening, so we're just trying to help be part of that. Hey, do me a favor right now. Look down. Are you subscribed to the show? If you are, thank you, genuinely, and if you aren't, please do it right now. It keeps this content free and helps one more person see through fast fashion's BS, and frankly, they deserve to know. 📍 Love it. And can you define... You, you did it a little in the beginning about a, a net zero building, but, like, just for our listeners, like, what should a legitimate net zero commitment look like? Yeah. Well, the, uh, part of the problem unfortunately is, like, a lot of the terminology is, like, just really confusing. Mm-hmm. And there's, like- Multiple terms for the same thing, and nobody understands it. And even people who work in sustainability have trouble figuring it out. So, um, it- one of my big pushes is just to try to simplify as much as possible. So we're still just talking about global warming at the biggest scale. That's the climate crisis. It's global warming, and it's pri- primarily from burning fossil fuels. That's the number one cause and that we're trying to cut down on. So just, that's still the biggest picture of what we need to focus on. And then talking about corporate commitments, so a lot of companies will have a goal for their company to track their carbon emissions, and get that down to zero by a certain date. That's typically what a company will... So they'll say, like, "We wanna be net zero by 2050," or, "Net zero by 2030," or whatever it is. And so for a company that's looking at their scope one, scope two, and scope three emissions, again, getting complicated really quickly. Nobody understands what that means. But it's looking at the different types of emissions and h- everything for the company. So every impact a company makes from their, their team members, the stuff that they buy, the projects that they do, if they own vehicles, you know, whatever it is, their office space. The emissions from everything that it takes to run that company, that's their total emissions, and they're trying to get, zero those out by a certain year. Very, very, very few companies are already there. My company is one of them. We are already beyond net zero, net positive, and we, we offset all of our footprint all the way back to day one. The company was founded in 2012, so we've been net positive for 14 years. It's totally doable. Again, just like with building a net zero building, we know exactly how to make companies re- achieve a net zero commitment. Um, but again, there's a, only a tiny fraction that actually have done this. Uh, and it just needs to become more and more common in the years ahead. Yeah. Completely. Well, thank you. That's a, think that's a very helpful you know, overall picture of, what that is, and hopefully listeners can, like, get a better understanding now. The hard-hitting question here. Can capitalism and real sustainability actually coexist? Your questions are killer questions. So that's a great one. That's another complicated one because I've thought a lot about this. So, I have an opinion. People definitely disagree on this. You know, for me coming out of college, I wanted to make a positive impact and make money doing it. That that was my goal in life. I was like, "Okay, what am I gonna do with my career for work? I, I wanna get a job, I wanna work. I have to make money, right? In, within a, the capitalist society I live in. But I don't wanna make a negative impact. I wanna make a positive impact while I do that." So, I feel like not many people would... pretty much everybody has that goal, right? We gotta make money and make a positive impact. Nobody wants to make a negative impact. But it's about choosing our career path then within that context. So if you work for a company like Wolf & Badger, where your day-to-day is nine to five, or my company, Vertical Group, both of our companies are certified B corporations, which is a super legit certification for companies that are making a positive impact on people and on, on the environment. So they're, they're for-profit, though, they're making money, but they're also making positive impact. And that is such a beautiful, beautiful thing and totally possible. And that's, to me, like, that's the future and, like, this, this new version of capitalism that has, already has a ton of momentum that can continue to grow and flourish and hopefully, in my, my view, hopefully eventually replace, you know, the current form of capitalism, which today's day-to-day is companies make a lot of crappy, cheap products. They're just looking for whatever... their only thought is what makes money, right? Mm-hmm. That's their only lens they're looking at is money. But if we also think about our impact on people and the planet, so we have three lenses instead of one. Not just money, but money, people and environment. And we think about all three- You can design businesses that achieve all three, that make very little to no negative impact, and you make money doing it. It's totally possible. And, uh, unfortunately, the, there's so many of these old legacy businesses that have been around for decades, if not centuries, that establish ways of doing business based on when we were uneducated in the past. We didn't know about the risks of a climate crisis and fossil fuels. And, you know, all, all these industries have had to adapt over time, so we have to make these big changes in the future to, to get there. But that brand of capitalism, B Corp capitalism, cert- a certified B Corporation, if you wanna look that up. I think there's a, there's more than 10,000 certified B Corps now. Wolf & Badger, Vertical Group, but also big brands like, um, Ben & Jerry's or Etsy or Method Soaps. You know, a lot of stuff that you'll see on the aisles of your grocery store are certified B Corps, companies that are, that are really doing good. Anyways, Patagonia's started is one of the original B Corps as well. So it's a great program to research. Try to see if you can implement it at your organiza- your company. If you work at a for-profit company and you're listening to this, please check out, uh, becoming a certified B Corp. I love that. I think that's so important. I think that, like what you're saying, like- I think it's kind of unrealistic for us to think that we're no longer gonna create things. Like we're gonna- Right ... be making things, we're gonna be selling them. That's, that's the world we live in. But finding ways of making those things, good for the planet, good for us, good for animals, good for everything is a possibility. It's, it's an option that's out there, and just hopefully getting more and more people to be involved to do that. I mean, I'm sure we can think of more examples but, and I, and I don't mean to... I'm not just trying to be self-promotional here, but just using my own company as an example. Vertical Group, very high-scoring B Corp. Our services are to help green and, and, and make our bu- the buildings we work on more sustainable. And we're a team of, like, 20, 25 people who work on laptops. So, like, our footprint is really minimal, and we offset 100% of our foot- including 100% of our travel and our footprint we offset every year. And so, like, we literally-- The only thing I can think of is, like, our laptops that eventually need to be recycled, you know, is one kinda negative input. But of course, we recycle all of our, our tech. Mm-hmm. Um, but other than that, there's like... I don't know if there's any negative impact from my company's footprint, and that's so cool. And lots of companies out there can make huge strides to become more sustainable and even eventually get to this almost no negative impact. There just n- there does need to be a lot of work to get there if you're, like, an entrenched business that's been around a long time. There's a lot of change management that needs to take place to do it. But if you're focused on it, it's, it is doable and achievable. And I think that's what we're gonna s- just see a lot of in the future and hopefully as, as quickly as possible. But I think-- I mean, my the- my thought is that we can live abundantly and sustainably at the same time- ... Um, if we design things in the right way. Yeah. Completely. Yeah, I really think it's just about having this, having our planet in, in- kind of our front of mind when we're making things of just like, okay, we can still make them, but just let's- Yeah cause as little harm as possible. I, I talk about design... Oh, sorry, what'd you say? I didn't mean to interrupt. No, you're fine. I was just saying to just cause as little harm as possible while making things. You, you- So with design, when I talk about this with architects, I usually say like, "You guys have been focused on two lenses of design your cost, the budget, and then the aesthetics and what, what it's gonna look like." Yeah. But you really need to have that third lens of sustainability as well. And if you don't think about sustainability, then it's just not a... You can't have good design without it being a sustainable design. Like, it's just not a good design. It's not good for the world. Uh, and again, we're, we're trying to mimic nature's systems. So j- we just need to get designers educated and everybody out there thinking about in clothing design, in building design, in product design, any type of design, it's not just budget and aesthetics, but also sustainability. There's three lenses to design through. Completely. I love that. Um, kind of another hard-hitting one. Sustainability has become very politically divisive. Even though healthier buildings, lower energy use, and less waste can benefit literally everyone how do you think that, like, climate action and, like, why do you think it's become such a culture war issue? Gosh, it's so sad, right? Like this-- it's just science, so it should not be politicized. Uh, let's start with, with that side of it, just that like this should, should not be happening. It shouldn't be a political debate. It's-- we're, we're-- the climate crisis is-- what we're talking about is just proven by science. It's caused by humans. There's no doubt. There's scientific consensus. But then what has happened through the years, and it's been, you know, what, three or four decades now that we've known about climate change, and I think it was one of the big fossil fuel companies, I think it was Exxon, you know, did a report on it and, um, they've known about it for, I think close to 50 years now. It's a really long time. But it's follow the money is the problem. It's fossil fuel money, literally many, many billions of dollars. These are huge-- These are some of the richest companies in the world that are completely entrenched in their business models. They make billions of dollars by selling fossil fuels. So they start to lobby as soon as... the climate crisis is a reality, right? It's a, as the movie title says, it's an inconvenient truth if, , if you work for a fossil fuel company that the climate crisis is happening, right? And,, in order to solve this So the fossil fuel companies, they're so rich and powerful, they started to lobby in, in Washington, DC in the US, and everywhere else, you know, every other capital globally around the world for their own interests, right? So they start to lobby and create marketing campaigns and schemes that are massive greenwashing efforts to confuse people purposefully. So that's, that's where the politicization and greenwashing and confusion are created purposefully by people who want to continue business as usual. So it's super, super sad and, um, super confusing and really hard to give people clarity and understanding when there's a lot of people out there that are working in the opposite direction purposefully trying to confuse the public, you know? Yeah. So it's, it's tough out there to be a consumer and be hear- hearing these really opposite messaging and some of it outright lies, right? And then try to have to see through that and make, make smart, you know, buying decisions as a consumer. Yeah. Well, I think one of the interesting things I had learned in, like, a previous podcast was that the whole doing your, inputting Your carbon emissions and, like, finding out how much carbon emissions you produce as a person, that whole calculator was created by, like, a, gas company. Exactly. And so it's literally meant to put the pressure on you as an individual so that you stop looking at these gas- Yeah ... companies. Yeah, yeah. And, like, they knew- Yep ... about the future of the environment and what it was gonna look like if they moved forward like that, but they don't, they didn't care. They wanted to- Yes ... they just hid it because they didn't wanna change what they were doing. They wanted to make money. And- This idea of a, I think the term is red herring. I think I'm getting this right. Yeah. It's just, like, something that's purposefully distracting. Yes. Yeah. That's just, like, distracting you from what you should be looking at. They're, like, purposefully distracting us, and it's been working. And it's working. Yeah. But now we're talking about it, right? So we're helping to educate people by this conversation right now. Yep. Yeah. Because obviously, it is good to always see what you can do as an individual, but it's so important to not put all the blame on you. Yeah. Like, do what you can, but remember that at the end of the day, like, these huge companies they're the ones really at fault here. And if we can, put our energy towards bringing attention to this and getting everyone to know this information... 'Cause again, that's something that I learned pretty fricking recently as someone who works, has been working in this industry for a while. So I'm just like, it- Yeah ... I, I can't imagine if I learned about it in the past, like, few years how many people don't know about it. I can give you an example of that too real quick. Yeah. I, you know, I told you my story about how we used to take money from SoCalGas. I think we stopped, like I said, maybe five or six years ago. I've worked in the sustainability industry for 20 years. The local gas company, SoCalGas, was so embedded in the green building industry, hosting events at their buildings all the time supporting tons of local nonprofits. They're purposefully very embedded in the sustainability world. So I didn't even think of them as part of the problem or think of them as a fossil fuel company for years and years until I finally connected all the dots and realized what was happening. Uh, so this can be extremely confusing for people. Yeah. Yeah, and that's why they do it. Yeah. To confuse us. On that kind of sad or dark or no, let's end- Yeah. ... on a happy one. You've spent more than a decade working on these issues. What have you actually seen that makes you believe meaningful change is still possible? Yeah, I do think we're making a lot of progress. We've been talking about it can be a very depressing industry to work in. There's always lots of bad news, but you can focus on lots of good news, bright spots as well, and I definitely, I'm, I feel lucky I was just, I'm n- kind of naturally optimistic, and I think that really helps working in this space because there are so many, like, like, downer moments. Yeah. And it's just such a daunting problem that we're facing that requires global action, and it's just like, how are we gonna do this across every country in the world? The carbon emission, there's no, you know, borders up in space once the emissions go up there. It's just, like, this global issue. Yeah, I mean, I, I am very hopeful. I just see a lot of companies reacting to this. Even with the Trump administration in place, the most anti-environment president in US history literally, Department of Energy and Environmental Protection Agency social media pages literally are posting, "Drill, baby, drill," on their, on their pages. Like, just the complete opposite direction of where we need to be going. But- Yeah ... even in the midst of all that our business is doing well. You know, we we're doing a ton of green building projects right now. The conference is gonna be great again this year, the Net Zero Conference. And that's just us, right? Like, everybody who works in this space is continuing to do all this amazing work even while the tone from the federal government is pulling in the opposite direction. So there's a lot of incredible, inspiring people. It's, this is science-based work. You know, we know that e- everything that we're working on is backed by science, so we know that it's the right thing to do, and it's gonna make a better world in the future. So I just feel really optimistic that we'll solve this issue, that we'll become more and more efficient, and have better design across the board for our, our clothing, our buildings, everything. And just, we're just making a better world. Heck yeah, we are. I love it. I think that is always so important to remember. I also feel like I'm just, like, a naturally optimistic human being, and I'm like, I definitely get hit with the the climate anxiety. But, like, I love hearing the good things, and I think that, , the more I hear it, the more I'm encouraged to keep going, and I hope that- everyone can start to feel that way too and, and get inspired. And, and I always try to meet people where they're at, you know? So if I, if they like my outfit and I can go, "Thanks, I thrifted it. You should go thrifting." Yeah. I'm like, it's not maybe, like, you don't know that I'm talking to you about sustainability, but I'm sneaking it in there, so. Yeah. Well, I love there's, , the famous climate activist, Greta Thunberg. , She's from Sweden. Am I getting that right? I think she's from Sweden. I think so. But she has a great quote. It's just that - we already know how to solve the climate crisis, we just aren't doing it yet. Yeah. And we, we've been kinda talking about that today. Like, we know how to make awesome sustainable clothing. We know how to make net zero buildings. It's sort of an education issue, right, for a lot of people. So we're both working on that. We're doing that in our, in this podcast today, and hopefully everybody else out there hear- hearing this can help to advocate and, and, just work towards positive change in your company, any organizations you're a part of. And of course, your personal life too, but like we're, like we've been talking about, anywhere we can impact, like, a wider group of people is really powerful as well. Yeah. Completely. I love it. Well, for anyone who wants to follow your work, where can they find you on social or anywhere else? Oh, all right. Self-promotion time. I love it. Thank you. Instagram or LinkedIn, just search my name, Drew Shula. And then our website's, um, verdicalgroup.com. That's spelled with a D in the middle. V-E-R-D. And then netzeroconference.com is the conference website. But yeah, would love to connect with everybody. Um, please hit me up. We'll definitely do that. And everyone check out the Net Zero Conference if you are in California or if you're willing to hop on a plane- ... or in a car, heck yeah, you'll see me- Come on out and Mr. Brew. You'll see a whole bunch of other amazing- You'll see both of us ... sustainability people, so you should definitely come.  If something in today's episode stuck with you, tell someone. Share it, screenshot it, send it to your group chat. Subscribe if you haven't, leave a review if you're feeling generous, and come find me on Instagram, TikTok, and YouTube at Lexi Silverstein. That's L-E-X-Y, silver like the color, S-T-E-I-N. Everything else lives at lexisilverstein.com. Live a good life and look fucking good doing it, and demand better from the brands in your closet and everywhere else. See you next week