Haute Talk with Cassidy DiPaola | The Real Cost of Fast Fashion, Fossil Fuels, and Corporate Pollution

Why are ordinary people paying for climate disasters while fossil fuel companies continue making enormous profits?

This week on The Lexy Show, Lexy talks with Cassidy DiPaola, communications director and spokesperson for Make Polluters Pay. The campaign is working to hold major fossil fuel companies financially accountable for the damage their products have caused to people, communities, and the climate.

Cassidy explains how climate Superfund bills require the largest historical polluters to help fund flood protection, wildfire prevention, cooling centers, home upgrades, public health programs, and clean energy. She shares what the successful campaigns in Vermont and New York can teach other states about building public support and turning climate accountability into real policy.

Lexy and Cassidy also discuss how the fossil fuel industry shifted attention toward individual carbon footprints while spending heavily on lobbying, public relations, and greenwashing. They explore how climate change is already affecting utility bills, food prices, insurance, education, physical health, and the emotional well-being of young people. Cassidy also explains what the campaign learned from the movement that held Big Tobacco accountable and why personal stories can make climate policy feel urgent and understandable.

The conversation connects fossil fuels to fashion through synthetic fibers, manufacturing, shipping, and fast fashion’s dependence on cheap energy. It is also an important reminder that individual sustainability does not require perfection. Real change happens when people give themselves grace, talk to others, support community campaigns, and demand accountability from the industries causing the most harm.

Listen to the full episode, subscribe to The Lexy Show, and follow Make Polluters Pay to learn how you can help hold Big Oil accountable.

Social Media

Instagram: @polluterspay
TikTok: @makepolluterspay
Website: makepolluterspay.net

If you enjoyed this conversation, be sure to subscribe to The Lexy Show, leave a review, and share this episode with someone who's ready to make more mindful choices for themselves and the planet. For more information visit https://lexysilverstein.com/

Transcript

video1036133000

[00:00:00] 

lexy: Welcome to the Lexi Show Fashion that gives a damn. This week I am joined by a spokesperson for make P'S Pay. Please join me in extending a warm welcome to Cassidy de Pola. Can you explain the core mission of Make Polluters Pay and the specific goals you aim to achieve through this program. Yeah, 

cassidy: so, um, make Polluters Pay is a national and international, um, campaign focused on big oil accountability. So, um, when we're talking about accountability and when we're talking about the fossil fuel industry, it's really all about fairness, right?

Um, these companies, these fossil fuel companies that have made literally trillions of dollars are, um, selling. They made these trillions of dollars selling products that they knew would drive climate ca change. And we believe that it's only fair that they help cover the costs that our communities are paying right now.

Um, and so. We advance this fairness principle and this idea of [00:01:00] accountability. And um, really I usually separate it into three concrete ways. So, uh, the first and maybe the nerdiest is that we help to pass climate Superfund bills. Um, and so climate Superfund bills are based on the EPA, the federal, um, Superfund, uh, bill, which is all about how when companies, um, toxic chemical companies come in and pollute our environment, uh, they have to clean it up.

It's like very common knowledge. Mm-hmm. Um, and so with Climate Superfund bills, it's really similar. It's that when the fossil fuel industry comes into our state and destroys our climate, they have to pay for that. And so with these bills, we're able to assess. The biggest historical fossil fuel producers and then make them pay into a fund.

And we use that fund for, uh, things that our communities can really see. Flood protection, wildfire prevention, cooling centers, home upgrades, um, public health, uh, and, you know, clean energy. There's so many different ways that we can use that money. So climate Superfund [00:02:00] bills are one aspect of the campaign and they're becoming really popular.

We passed the very first one in the entire world, um, in May of 2024 in Vermont. The end of December, 2024, we passed one in New York and we have about a dozen more introduced all across the country moving. So that's one part of it. I think the second part of it is, um, we support climate liability lawsuits that seek to recover damages for the fossil fuel industries.

Deception and harm, which I'm sure we'll talk about more. Um, these. Climate liability lawsuits are super similar to, uh, what states used in the court to hold big tobacco accountable back in the nineties and early two thousands. And then our third bucket is, uh, like really broad, right? We work to end fossil fuel giveaways.

We work to fight against the oligarchy, which a lot of, um. A lot of people are doing right now in organizations are doing, when we talk about ending giveaways, this looks like tax breaks. This looks like massive subsidies, uh, [00:03:00] that let polluters privatize their profit while all of us have to pick up the tab for it.

Um, and then, you know, while we're doing this, I think what's super important about our work with the Make p Polluters Keep Pay campaign is that we do a ton of public education. I'm the communications director for the campaign. So literally all I do is talk and it's just talking to the public, educating the public so that, um, our taxpayers, our lawmakers, the journalists writing stories about climate change that they all know and have the receipts on what the industry has known and what they've chosen to do and how it's shaped, um, the climate crisis that we're in.

So I think 

lexy: that's the big picture. I think that's amazing. I think it's so important too. You know, I was just talking about this with people and I was like, setting these like individual goals for yourself in sustainability and, you know, being able to hit these like different, I feel like buckets is like, so important and having them cover a whole realm of different possibilities.

'cause I think [00:04:00] that, you know, like I specifically talk a lot about the fashion industry and sustainability in the fashion industry, but like, we're on this planet. Every industry is being a part of this. Every, every person is affected by this. Um, and so I think it's, it's just really incredible work. Um, something I feel like I've also noticed is, unfortunately a lot of the times when we talk about sustainability, it's a lot of like holding.

Yourself and other people accountable to like a fault, I feel like. Mm-hmm. Um, where it's like, oh, like I had to use a plastic water bottle today and I'm gonna feel horrible about it for the rest of the day. Um, but like big oil is, is a huge, huge, huge part of this. And I don't always notice, I feel like us as individuals holding these big, this big oil accountable.

So why do you think that is, and why, why is it essential to hold specifically big oil accountable for the climate damage that may have caused. 

cassidy: Yeah, that's a great question. And I will just say, um, you know, talking about plastic water bottles, [00:05:00] I obviously am like very passionate about this work, and so I chat everybody up that I know about it.

Like at any moment I try not to overwhelm them, but I love to talk about climate and sustainability and all of these, um, different things. And so I also, obviously I'm trying to be good every day and do my part, but I will find myself so nervous to be caught with like a, a plastic water bottle. Mm-hmm. And like, sometimes I just forget and I'm so thirsty and I'm like, oh God, my classmates, you know, I'm in law school in the evenings and I talked to, you know, in my class about, uh, climate and I'm like, geez, I can't buy a plastic water bottle right now.

One, because I don't wanna kill the climate, but two, because I don't want them to look at me as like not doing my part or being hypocritical. But the truth of the matter is, and we'll, you know, I have plenty to say about this and I'm getting off topic, but it's, um. Having grace with yourself and others.

Mm-hmm. Um, is super important. And I think about the fossil fuel industry too, in that we, it's absolutely essential that we have to hold them accountable. And I'll [00:06:00] share more later, but it's also like we have to have grace with the people that are working in this industry. The majority of the people that work in the fossil fuel industry are like refinery workers in Texas that are getting paid minimum wage, risking their lives, uh, working in really horrible and unfair conditions.

'cause that's the only job that we've, that they're offered, right? We need to start offering them clean energy jobs. We need to, um, provide a world in which people can get paid fairly and not have to do the dirty work. So it's, it's important when you think about that in terms of your very good and interesting question of why folks so frequently, um.

Failed to think about the fossil fuel industry and more think about individual impacts. And I think there's so many answers. The very first one, and what I find most interesting, I discovered this maybe like, I don't know, eight years ago in college and it blew my mind, was that the idea of a carbon footprint, like a personal footprint mm-hmm.

Is, um, created by the fossil fuel industry. They have so much money, they've paid, um, pr, excellent PR companies, [00:07:00] tens, hundreds of millions of dollars and. I think it was in the early two thousands or the nineties, I believe it was Shell, um, that came up with this idea of a personal carbon footprint. And they made it all about us and how we are having to think about the damage that we've done to the climate and our everyday, uh, actions that are hurting our climate, when really it's like, okay, that's such a minor detail in comparison to how much emissions, ExxonMobil and shell are emitting every day.

And so I think that really speaks to the fact that the fossil fuel industry has done such a good job at PR and communications and they have really. Sky, who they are and what they have, what they do, right? Every single ad. I listen to the New York Times, the Daily podcast every day. They must be paying New York Times so much money, and I'm happy that they're keeping journalism alive.

But all of their ads are just talking about how ExxonMobil is dedicated to clean energy. And ExxonMobil is dedicated to keeping our climate safe. And so I think that [00:08:00] people really just don't know how bad fossil fuels are. Mm-hmm. And uh, they have so much money that they're able to hide from it. I think it's also complicated, right?

Like it's hard to know exactly how burning fossil fuels contributes to the climate crisis. If you are not really in depth and like within the DC political scene, you probably also don't know that they're spending hundreds of million dollars a year lobbying with the Congress and the legislature and also, you know.

Nobody knows. Not enough people know the fact that the fossil fuel industry has known about what their products would do to our climate since literally 1954. That's the earliest state that we have, which is insane. And people don't know that. And me, as a climate communicator, I need to get better at sharing that.

Journalists need to get better at sharing that. So I think there's so many different compounding details, um, for, and answers for why the fossil fuel industry doesn't know, but largely it's that they have this massive wealth and they're able to pump so much money into, uh, really the PR [00:09:00] industry to distract us and, um, make us blame ourselves or others for what they're really doing.

lexy: Yeah, no, it's, it's really, it's shocking news. I honestly think I learned that like earlier this year. Um, which. I feel like most people are. Yeah. Even like when it came to the fashion industry, there were so many people that I still talk to about on a daily basis that people are like, what's sustainable fashion?

And I'm like, do you even follow me on social or friends? Like, do you even, have you had a conversation with me ever? Um, but it's like, it's, we're learning more and more and more about this, and it's like the more we say it, the more we it gets out there. Um, and I, I think it's, I mean, I, I think it's, if there is one thing that big oil and also the president or the current president, every United States is good at it's, uh, marketing and pr 

Speaker 3: I know, 

lexy: which is super, super, super unfortunate because that is the story that is then going to be out there and that the story that people are believing.

Um, and so that's just like, so. It's so frustrating because it's truly genius marketing to turn it back [00:10:00] on the consumers. Yeah. And make them think that they're the problem. And it's worked. It's completely worked. Totally. Um, and there's, you know, like carbon footprint calculators and Well, I think it's helpful to Yes.

Maybe look at those things and see what you can do differently. Um, it's also so important to remember that it's not just on us as consumers. Um, totally. And that big oil is really pushing this narrative of trying to make it on us. 

cassidy: Yeah, absolutely. And I'll just like jump on a point that you talked about, you know, your friends being like, or people asking you about sustainable fashion and obviously that's what you are an expert on.

And um, you know, obviously I've, I follow you, I see your feed and I know as a communicator myself, it can feel like, oh God, I'm just repeating the same thing over and over. But the reminder is that we have to do that. It can sometimes feel awkward or uncomfortable or boring or like, geez, am I just kind of preaching to the choir?

But like you have friends and followers that are still confused about what, what sustainable fashion is despite the fact that this is what you talk about every day. And like, I think you know the [00:11:00] story of they knew they lied, which is so massive in the climate world, right? Everybody in the climate world knows that the climate world being like NGOs and stuff Yeah.

That the fossil fuel industry has known since the fifties. And, um. And did nothing and actually like actively worked to hide it. And so, because we all know that, and we've known that for a long time, we kind of forget to tell that story to other people. Mm-hmm. Because we just assume that they know, or we've said it before.

And I posted a really cool video about it on TikTok and it got a ton of views. And now I think I'm not supposed to talk about it anymore. Mm-hmm. But we are, and like we really have to. And it's such a juicy, sexy story to be like that fossil fuel industry knew in this deception, in this way. It should be a movie, honestly, in my mind, maybe not to others.

And yet, like I'm nervous to talk about it all the time because I assume people know or that it's, you know, going to be boring. But like part of communi good communication, like part of why Trump is our president is 'cause he has like three things to say and he says it every day like Unshaped. So just a good reminder I guess for [00:12:00] myself at least.

lexy: No, truly you saying that makes me feel so much better. 'cause I swear to God in every single episode I'll be like, well, I've said this before. Well I've said this before, I say this often. But it is, it's like these are, that's good comms need to know. And it's like, okay, well what if one person listened to that podcast a month ago, um, and didn't listen to all the ones in between, like then they got that information once, but I've said it every single episode.

So it's not necessarily exactly repeating itself. And to the people that do listen to every single one of them, they just get the same snippet and they get to share with their friends. Yeah. It's ingrained in their mind by me. Exactly. That's good too. Yeah, exactly. Well, that is honestly, thank you for saying that because I will often be like, I need to come up with new facts.

Like they're all there. I just always stick with the same ones. No, that's, that's what part of it is all about. Yeah. I support. Thank you. Um, well, so you mentioned Vermont and New York have already passed Climate Superfund bills to make oil companies pay for climate damages as well as like [00:13:00] dozens of other states.

But what can we learn from successes like this and how do we, you know, hope to see this model expanding in the future? 

cassidy: Yeah. Yeah, that's a great question. So, um, we're, we're super excited. As I mentioned, um, Vermont passed the first ever climate Superfund bill in May of 2024, and then New York followed in December of 2024.

Both were hard fought battles. Um, I think that in Vermont, what really spurred folks, 'cause the idea of a climate superfund has been like circling around the movement for quite some time. But, um, in Vermont, uh, two summers ago now, the, or maybe it was three summers ago, life is so fast. 

Speaker 3: Yeah. 

cassidy: Um, there was the devastating Montpelier flooding and so, um, in one day, uh, Montpelier, Vermont, the capital of Vermont suffered $1 billion of damages.

And so that's insane. In general, I can't even like. Kind of conceptualize what a billion dollars is, but also it's really insane for somewhere as small as Vermont, like their budget's not able to handle that. [00:14:00] And so these Vermonters kind of put their heads together and were like, how could we possibly recover from this?

Um, and they talked about this idea of a climate Superfund bill. And so I think that, you know, that moment there were so many Vermonters that lost, like their family business or their family home or just prize possessions or really just their safety and like their ability to sleep safely at night. And that was like the bleeding heart throughout that campaign.

And now I believe it was three years ago. So now, um, three years later, extreme weather is just all over the news. It's happening to everybody. We saw it with Hurricane Helene. We saw it with, uh, the, the devastating fires in Los Angeles. We saw it this summer with you. 28 children dying in Texas flooding.

And I think that it was, it served as a reminder to everyone in the climate movement that listening to people's stories. And really talking about like the very real impacts of climate change, what it means to lose your home, your [00:15:00] safety, a loved one in a disaster like that is how we get change made. It's not talking about like crazy CO2 wonky emissions, um, making people the heart of the campaign is what it's all about.

And so we carried that from Vermont with these people that were willing to share their story from the flooding, um, into all of the other campaigns that we're working on with Climate Superfund bills. I think another really massive lesson was that this is totally winnable. Um, we think of like fossil fighting against the fossil fuel industry as this like verse Goliath struggle.

It's like we are the little guy and we're fighting this massive industry. And that's true, but what people often think is, we can't win. You can't beat someone like the fossil fuel industry. I mean, they're the richest and most powerful people in the world, but yet we did and little over Vermont and, and New York.

Um. And we're continuing to do so. So this is a really winnable strategy. Um, we've done a poll, a ton of polling at the Make Looters Pay campaign. We just did some national polling in August. Um, and. 78% of [00:16:00] Ella of likely voters in the United States are in support of a Climate Superfund bill, and an even higher amount, I'm forgetting the exact number, are in support of generally holding the fossil fuel industry accountable.

So we learned that this is super popular despite the fact that Donald Trump tries to tell us that we're dependent on the fossil fuel industry, despite the fact that the administration is literally filled with, um, people that have formerly worked for the fossil fuel industry. And so, um, we can't let, like the doubt in our ears that tell us we can't win or tell us that people don't want it to come through.

I think also, um, this is a super practical solution. Like the whole idea of a climate Superfund bill is that it's getting money from the industry responsible to the state and talking about climate as both as a very personal issue like I mentioned, but also, hey, this is a kitchen table topic like.

Climate change makes our bills way higher. Climate change makes [00:17:00] it super expensive when we have to, uh, you know, clean our basements out from getting flooded every year. Climate makes everything a lot more expensive and it's straining our budgets. Bloomberg just did a story, um, maybe a month or two ago that this year we're going to experience $1 trillion in climate costs in the United States, a trillion dollars.

Um, our budgets can't handle that. Donald Trump is canceling fema. Donald Trump is canceling Noah. We're not getting any money from the federal government to protect ourselves. And so states need to step up and that's what Vermont and New York did. And uh, I think it shows that other states can and should follow and they are.

Um, so there were a lot of lessons learned. It was a super exciting campaign, both of them and very hard. But, uh, we did it. And a lot of legislators are excited to join in and we're embracing them with open arms. 

lexy: That is so amazing. I think just hearing that is like. One of those success stories that makes you immediately feel better because we do, I've known and talked to so many people that have worked in the climate space and had to [00:18:00] stop working in it because it was such a honestly depressing topic conversation Yeah.

Of the time. Um, and, you know, you can be filled with like doom and dread. And I remember, I, I, I find it so funny 'cause there's this one time that I was on like a 45 minute flight, unfortunately, um, from, I forgot where. Um, and it was my only way of getting there or something. 'cause I was in Europe and I didn't know and whatever.

And so, um, my friends and I, I had initially, you know, was fully prepared to put my headphones on, listen to some music essentially, basically. Take off and land like 30 seconds later. Very not happy about that. Um, but I had my headphones in my like, carry-on bag. And the carry-on didn't end up being able to fit underneath my seat, so it went overhead.

So I was like, oh, I could go get it, but like, it's literally like a 45 minute flight. Like, I might as well just sit here. Um, and so I sat there and they start coming by and they're passing out like water bottles. And I was like, geez, like this is [00:19:00] like a 45 minute flight, like water bottles, like, like that's a lot of water bottles throughout the day for every single flight.

And it sent me on this huge spiral of like, oh my god. How am I supposed to change the world and the fashion industry when we're handing out like a million, not even way more than a million plastic water bottles on a daily basis. Yeah. And I was like, literally walked off that plane and I was talking to my friends and I was like, I'm like actually set in the spiral.

Like, I don't know what to do. And they were like, girl, we were on that flight for 45 minutes. Like, how you get, how'd you get all this done in the 45 minutes sitting there? I was, I fell asleep. Yeah. I was like, bro, it's, this is what working in climate is like. And so it's, but it's like truly, like that's something that I feel like is a reality of working in this space and feeling, yeah.

Kind of dread and doom, but hearing things like, you know, you know, we think this big oil is, is something that we can never defeat. Um, but these, these winds are us, you know? [00:20:00] Getting there and, and, and, and just in general, that win is a defeat. And then eventually, hopefully, you know, we can, um, make even, even, even bigger, um, changes.

And so that's what I, um, my like biggest enemy in life. Well, I guess there's a bunch when it comes, but one of mine in the fashion industry is sheen. I hate she, and I remember I was talking to people and I was like, oh, I like really, my goal would be to like eventually one day, like not anytime soon unless, but whatever, um, is to like completely take down sheen as a company.

Yeah. Um, that sounded very threatful if they're listening. No, I love it. I'm like, 

cassidy: wait, should we start like a end she campaign 

lexy: or something? Yes. I love that. Let's do it. I like, so I, um, they like had this, when I was in college, they partnered with my college and I, and they did this whole partnership and I was pissed because I was like.

My college is how I originally had learned about sustainable fashion. 'cause I toured there like five years ago at this point. And they had Where did 

cassidy: you go to school? 

lexy: I went to the [00:21:00] Fashion Institute Design and Merchandising in downtown Los Angeles. Okay, nice. It is now not a school, it's been bought by Arizona State University.

Um, but, which makes a lot of sense considering we're in California, but whatever. Um, um, so they had partnered with Sheen and I was like, I literally, when I learned about sustainable fashion, I walked into one of these rooms that we had a textile room and it was like all these sustainable fabrics, like quirk and apple leather and all these things.

And I was like, 

Speaker 3: wow. 

lexy: Like I didn't know that this was a thing. And I like, again, went down a little bit of a, a spiral. Um, but that resulted in me completely changing everything I was doing into sustainability and, and especially in the fashion industry. Um, and so when they partnered with she and I was like so pissed and I started to petition against it.

Um. Good for you. And I did protest against Chian and now I'm, I'm tackling some other things, but I, I would love eventually to take down Chian. So, um, yeah, and people look at me when I say this and they're like, they're like a huge company. Like, good luck with that. And I'm like, okay, but my petition was great.

Test was great. Like, these are all wins. You're, you know, I just haven't quite yet taken down sheen, but the, I'm, I'm [00:22:00] taking those steps and that, that's what's encouraging us. And so I think hearing stories and hearing ways that states and, um, especially now that states are coming together to pass these things is just so important.

And kind of like that light at the end of the tunnel that is helping us, you know, keep fighting when in such a daunting and scary time. 

cassidy: Yeah, absolutely. I really love that. That is so awesome. It's really fun to hear how people tackle climate in their various ways and, um, like a protest and a petition.

Excellent ways to do that and like very, uh, like for your friends or people to say, oh, they're a massive company. It's like, that's what they want you to think. Exactly. They want you to think that they can't, you can't do anything. But yet we have done this so many times, and I, I know that we'll talk about big tobacco, or I've mentioned it before, but like, think about the ways that like our parents' generation thought about smoking.

Granted, I will do a disclaimer that our whole generation is totally addicted to like vaping and the Juul now so bad. [00:23:00] But for a long period of time, um, we weren't, and like smoking used to be so casual and normal, and then people literally started saying like, wait a second, this is not okay. Brought them to court now they can't do any, first of all, they had to pay massive, massive settlements.

And then, and now they're like shells of the company that they once were on every single, you know, cigarette, um, you know, I don't even know Carton. There's. The most insane pictures of people really sick and dying. No, it's insane. We took them out. Yeah. So it's just, it's crazy. Also, I will say, I'm, um, reading this book Here Comes The Sun by Bill McKibbon, who I absolutely love.

He's my climate hero. Um, and I've gotten to work with him a bunch on clean energy campaigns, but I have spent so much of my career working against the fossil fuel industry. It's all been about accountability or trying to stop pipelines, trying to fight massive projects. Lots and lots and lots of losing.

Um, but with Bill, we've started working on clean energy and this book is incredible because it's super [00:24:00] positive and it's about the fact that, you know, we are, um, starting to create more clean energy than we are fossil fuel, uh, energy. And it's a really positive book. So for anyone listening, if you need some light at the end of the tunnel, I highly recommend, here comes The Sun.

Um, and I recommend thinking about clean energy as a way for. Uh, like a very real transition that feels super possible right now. Um, but yeah, climate's a lot about losing and, uh, you lose until you win, so. 

lexy: Yeah. Yeah, exactly. And then that win is just like so worth it. It'll make everything else worth it.

But yeah, I think, I loved how you said if you need a light at the end of the tunnel and then the book's literally called Your Cousins the Sun. Like that's, I know, that's like, I feel like the perfect then representation of like, what, what you're about to read. 

cassidy: Yeah. He need, he knew what the world needed, 

lexy: um, and he wrote 

cassidy: it, so I'm grateful for it.

lexy: Well, I mean, we've talked about something that um, I think like I definitely saw a lot during, um, the LA Fires, 'cause I live in LA and, um, were people posting about how like natural [00:25:00] disasters are never actually natural. Like they're, you know, caused by, by companies like big Oil. And so I know you've mentioned, um.

A bunch of, you know, sp like those, uh, quote unquote natural disasters that have occurred, that we have seen, um, especially a lot recently that have been, you know, kind of been a good wake up call to a lot of people. Um, but can you also give examples of how climate change is just impacting people's daily lives and health and finances?

cassidy: Yeah, absolutely. And, um, I can't imagine how devastating it was in Los Angeles. I used to live in Highland Park and in Mar Vista, um, two very different places in la. I love them both. Um, but, uh, and so it's just, and have a lot of loved ones and friends still there. It's just so devastating to see. Um, and it's also devastating to see that the way that.

In large part, the world has moved on from that. There is still such devastation, and yet we've continued, um, and we've continued pumping fossil fuels and CO2 into the atmosphere. But yeah, I think, I love the way that you frame that because climate [00:26:00] change is about these massive disasters that you read about in the news.

Um, climate change is also super insidious and it comes in the smallest ways and impacts our lives, uh, really in ways that you wouldn't know are necessarily caused by climate change until, um, maybe somebody tells you. Mm-hmm. And so I think, you know, a really good example of that is, um, like higher utility bills, right?

When it is incredibly hot for really extended periods of time, we're pumping the ac, we're using so much more energy, not because we're these greedy consumers, which I think in some ways we are need to improve that, but also because it's. Not possible to live when you are a hundred degrees in turn, you know, 110 degrees internally.

And so people are paying more. And then vice versa, in the winter, we're paying more to keep ourselves warm. Um, and I think that, uh, just higher bills in general, the fossil fuel industry totally, um, has like such a stronghold on [00:27:00] our energy. And so when we are completely dependent on them for, you know, f.

Putting energy into our cars when they tell us that we have to pay $6, uh, a gallon for really no reason, because oftentimes, um, it's, it's controlled on a, a global scale. Um, we have to pay that amount of money. And so I think that we're paying higher costs. I mean, climate change is hurting our agricultural industry.

Obviously the agricultural industry is also a large polluter. Um, but, uh, when it's harder to grow crop and we have less of them, it's going to be way more expensive to buy them in supermarkets. And then when we wanna feed our kids, we're suddenly paying way more money to do that. And often having to decide, okay, well I'm gonna buy them fresh vegetables, but I'm not gonna get my medicine this month.

Something like that. Mm-hmm. Um, and you know, I think that. Another really good example. So I work with a ton of incredible youth across the country that are fighting the fossil fuel industry and are fighting for a just and safe and healthy future. Um, and tomorrow, actually in [00:28:00] California, a bunch of youth are, um, doing a massive school walkout.

So all of these kids are getting together, I think we have over 50 schools in California, which is a ton. It's gonna be hundreds, prob, you know, it's gonna be tens of thousands of kids, most likely, um, are walking out of class because it's like, what's the point of me sitting here and learning when in 20 years from now my neighborhood isn't going to sustain me?

Or a hundred years from now, our state is going to be underwater. Um. And so, you know, these kids, they're so inspiring and they're talking to us about how um, their schools aren't built for the heat that they're experiencing in Southern California and they're actually having classes canceled because it's so hot.

Or vice versa. The smoke is so unhealthy that if they are to walk to school and sit inside their classroom, they'll get asthma or something, some respiratory disease. So they have to get school canceled. Um, and this is happening across the country to students as well. Uh, it's also like the mental toll. We were just laughing 'cause you have to [00:29:00] laugh about, uh, you know, the spirals that you get into thinking about the climate crisis.

We are youth obviously. Um, but think about like the 16-year-old that's sitting there thinking, am I not gonna have a future? Or how am I going to, um, you know, how is life going to be vastly different when I'm 60 years old? That's like. An incredible mental toll that I think we're starting to accept, but we don't talk about nearly enough.

I also, I read an interesting story, honestly, I think it was by like a a RP or something, um, or some insurance company. But they said that children born in 2020 are likely going to have to pay, um, like over the course of their lifetime, $500,000, half a million dollars more than a child born in, you know, 2000 due to climate change due to rising housing costs, due to rising utility rates due to, uh, bouncing back from disasters.

So many different things. And so financially there's this massive toll on young people as well. Uh, so climate change is kind of all [00:30:00] around us. Um, I think also with health, I work with some incredible folks in Louisiana and we just got the most devastating news that's CP two, this massive LNG export terminal that we actually.

Fought and won against. Um, in January of last year when Biden, um, was the president, he decided to pause construction on CP two. Um, it's going to. Totally destroy our climate, like the emissions are out of this world. Um, and, uh, yesterday the Trump administration approved it after we thought we had won the battle.

And so these communities in Louisiana have already been pushed out of their homes, right? Like the historic wetlands that they used to live in these places are no longer inhabitable. I've got indigenous fishermen that have their family's been there for generations. There are no more fish left in Louisiana for them to catch, right because of the pollution.

Um, I've got an incredible mother whose, uh, daughter had to miss her, uh, sixth birthday party because she was having such severe asthma attacks [00:31:00] because there's a LNG export terminal down the road from her cancer alley. I mean, there are just so many ways that we are being impacted by this crisis and by largely the fossil fuel industry that, uh, it's hard to even put into words what they all are.

Um, and, and, uh, you know. Sometimes there really just are no words for it. And, uh, you just have to sit on a plane, um, and get really scared about, uh, you know, water bottles for a while. And, and that's like literally the crime at crisis. Invading our heads too. It's all over the place. 

lexy: Yeah, no, completely. I remember when I moved to California conversation I was having with my cousin who's still in high school, was like, oh, like we used to get like snow days off, but I guess you guys don't, you guys get like, fire days.

And I was like saying that, and I was like, I can't believe, I can't believe this is what we're dealing with. Like, I can't believe this is just like a normal like thing. And even with that, I mean, I'm from Maryland and I'm like, even with that, I don't remember the last time that I haven't lived there in a while, but that like my parents have called me and been like, oh, there's a [00:32:00] ton of snow.

Yeah. Like, it's been years. And so even though it's like, oh, is it either a. Is it that we're not going to school because it's snowing so bad? Or is it not, we're not gonna school 'cause it's, there's fires or there's landslides or there's, you know, all these other, but it's, it's just the fact that we're having this conversation that I'm just like, I can't believe that this is the, like reality where it's like, oh, weird.

You don't get snow days, but you get fire days. And I'm like, yeah. Oh God, that's like not good. Like neither of those are great options. Like no, it's crazy. Yeah. It's so, it's so interesting, um, to, to see how, you know, this is impacting people in school and I think it's so amazing that they're, they're doing, I wish that that was something that like, I'm sure maybe it happened and I just like wasn't aware of it.

Um, but I don't remember anything in like Maryland happening like that when I was in school. And so I'm so glad to see it happening now. Like that's so again, like one of those, like, I feel like this is a, a great little like tidbit to keep me going and make me feel encouraged and, and know that, you know, there's, [00:33:00] there's hope for the next generation and stuff.

Yeah. Um, and, but I, I think it's like, oh gosh, I'm like, ugh, wish I did that when I was in high school. 

cassidy: No, it's so crazy. It's so funny that you say it. So I graduated high school in 2015. I'm 28 years old. Um, and, uh, I work with so many young kids and I think about that every day. And I think like, damn, when I was in high school, uh, I was like in the recycling club and I also was in like the garden club and that, and, and like, basically what we did was like maybe one day a week we like gardened and maybe one day a week we sorted recycling.

Mm-hmm. 

Speaker 3: Which 

cassidy: is a whole nother topic of, and I'm sure you know too, that this is kind of a fake thing that Yeah. Is not helping. Um, but now it's like, oh my God. And I feel really mixed emotions. But I, I, I know and I have faith that we will overcome because of young people. And I think that like listening to how brilliant they are and the way that they are fighting for this climate and like just the ingenious ideas they have, give me full faith that we will.

Persevere. But what I hate is that they have to [00:34:00] do all of this stuff. And there's this like young kid that I work with. He's not, he's in college, but um, I think of him as young and he was in high school when I met him, but uh, he is in college and he will call me on a Saturday night at 10:00 PM and be like, I've got this like big massive protest that we're organizing.

Can you help me with X, Y, Z or do you guys have any extra resource and blah, blah, blah. And of course I'm like, yes, let's do this. But I also am like, dude, go to a college party. Like, don't make out with your crush. You know, do something fun. I hate that we've put this upon them, but we have, and we have to work with them and help them get through it.

But yeah, young people are so incredible and, um, and yeah, maybe after this episode I'll uh, send you some updates on how the walkout goes too. Oh my God, please. I think it'll be great. 

lexy: Please do. Yeah, I would love to hear that. I think that's exactly how I felt where I did a, a beach cleanup this past Saturday.

Um, which again is kind of one of those things that it's like, okay, how much is this really helping? But it was in [00:35:00] collaboration with Heald the Bay, um, here in Los Angeles, and they like, take the stats you like. It's actually really, it's like, I find it very fun. Um, and I go with my very competitive boyfriend who I'm like, great, yes, you take this beach cleanup and get competitive about it.

Like, try to beat me with how many trash you get. That's a win. Is a win. Like, exactly. Um, but they take that information and you like track like, oh, we found this many cigarette butts and this many plastic water bottles. And then they take it and they, you know, use that as information to then push for real.

Legislation change, legislative change, um. But I was like, they got so much trash. I think it, we ended up with like 117 pounds of trash and I was like, I don't know how I feel about this. 'cause I'm glad that we got it, but I'm very concerned that it was there in the first place. Yeah. And it feels like one of those things where I'm like, oh, I love seeing, you know, people getting involved in this, but I hate that they have to.

cassidy: Yeah, exactly. No, it's a very hard, [00:36:00] it's just super confusing. Like there's no real other word for it, except like confusion, confliction, but yet hope, um, and gratefulness that people are involved. That sounds fun. Maybe next time I'm in LA I'll join you. 

lexy: Oh my God. Please do. Lemme know when you're here. We'll go.

I will. Um, I genuinely like really love doing it. The next one they're doing next month, they do one every month is at sunset. And I'm really excited 'cause all the ones I've done are like in the morning, which is also very encouraging 'cause it's very like nice to see, um, people waking up in the morning and being like, I'm gonna spend my Saturday doing this.

Um, and I will say at this last one, we had so many UCLA students and so that was another thing where I was like, nice. It was like, I was like, yay. Like I'm so glad that you know, you're getting your volunteer hours or whatever you're doing here at a beach cleanup. Um. But I hate that you have to. Um, but anyways, um, we've talked a little bit about this, but fashion is, is my passion, uh, when it comes, uh, well, all things.

Sustainability is my passion, but especially the fashion industry, and it's one of the largest industries contributing [00:37:00] to environmental pollution, often tied to fossil fuels for production, transportation and materials. So how do you see campaigns like make polluters pay intersecting with efforts to make the fashion industry more sustainable?

cassidy: Yeah, yeah. So I mean, like you say, fashion is so deeply tied to fossil fuels from like, petrochemical based fibers, polyester, nylon, I'm sure I'm wearing both right now. Uh, the like incredibly intense energy intensive manufacturing. And then I think like a really under um. Kind of underappreciated, but you acknowledged it is, uh, like shipping, right?

And all of those logistics. And so, um, with the Make p polluters pay campaign, our work really tackles, um, the energy layer that kind of underpins the fossil fuel industry. And so if we end, um, fossil, you know, fossil fuel subsidies, like I mentioned, or if we, uh, like secure these make polluter pay funds for clean power.

Which can power, um, you know, the things that the fashion industry needs. Um, it becomes way easier for these, uh, like apparel and these fashion [00:38:00] makers to cut emissions of their own across their supply chain, uh, chains. And so, you know, I think also part of the Make p polluters pay campaign, it's not a huge part.

Um, but it's part of more of like our education and our ending of, um, giveaways is about like pushing for really honest claims. Um, and so like when we're doing green marketing, we expect green results. Consumers shouldn't have to like, uh, like we expect people to be truthful about how they're creating their products, both with the fossil fuel industry and the fashion industry.

Consumers should not have to be like trying to do chemistry at checkout to figure out if this is made of a petrochemical or not. And so I think that's one part of it. I think also. Like when I talk about, um, make p polluters pay, a lot of people, like the most common response is, what about X, Y, Z industry?

Right? Like, what about plastics? What about, um, agriculture? What about fashion? Like, these are all masks, P polluters, coal, you know, why is it just that you're focusing on Exxon Mobile, Saudi Aramco, et cetera? My answer to them is like, [00:39:00] girl, we can only do so much. We are tackling one industry. Um, but every industry should pay.

Um, and so I think that like there is a world, I think. Big picture. What we're trying to do is hold accountable the people that create the industry that makes the fossil fuel industry so dirty. Um, and if we can make clean energy more accessible, then the fashion industry can use clean energy to produce their materials.

And then I also think it's like, yeah, sheen should pay. Like we should. All of these fast fashion brands should actually pay. And if we can make the fossil fuel industry pay and those companies, then that can empower other people to say, wait a second, I'm actually fed up too. I want to start a campaign.

And so like, I'm very serious when you're talking about sheen, like that's a perfect campaign that everybody knows about. And it's like, what? Like at what magnitude have you already destroyed our planet? Because I know it's a lot. You have to pay a portion of that and we can bring scientists to get involved.

And so really I think the campaign is, um, like one part of a. A [00:40:00] massive accountability effort that can involve the fossil fuel or the fashion industry and should involve the fashion industry as well. We just need experts like yourself to do that. And we'll cheer behind you. 

lexy: Oh my gosh. I'm like, if you guys are any, anytime you wanna do a campaign, I'm ready.

Like, yeah. Let's take Sheen down. 

cassidy: Let's take 'em down. I hope we aren't, and we mean this in a legal way. Know? Yes. Uh, for the records. 

lexy: Uh, uh, this is hypothetical. Exactly. You mean that doing it in a legal way, take them down. Haha. Just no stress. Anyway, um, we talked about this a little bit as well, but you've modeled your movement on the truth campaign, which took on big tobacco.

What can we learn from that campaign success? And how are we, how are you adapting those strategies to target big oil? 

cassidy: Yeah, so I think that the biggest thing that came out of the, um, truth campaign, which was basically exposing the truth that the tobacco industry knew that their products were going to harm [00:41:00] consumers and they lied about it and they sold the products to consumers anyways, um, which directly mirrors the fossil fuel industry and a lot of other industries.

Um, it's that we need to tell that story and we need to make that story of deception. The center of the campaign, um, when people found out that, uh, you know, I mean big tobacco, the CEOs of these tobacco indu, uh, of the, these tobacco companies were brought to Congress and then in front of Congress, they all swore an oath and said that they didn't know that smoking cigarettes was going to cause cancer.

And they lied, you know, to the American people and to our Congress, um, because they wanted to protect themselves and they wanted to protect their massive profits and, uh, you know, money to shareholders. And, uh, when people found out about it, it was over for them. Basically. They had a chance. People love smoking cigarettes.

And then they found out that, um. These people didn't care about their health. And, and as a result, we were able to bring the [00:42:00] tobacco industry to heal. And the Ca Truth campaign was a large part of that. And so. With, um, the Make p polluters pay campaign, we try to center everything around this truth. And this truth is that the fossil fuel industry has known since 1954 that burning fossil fuels was going to cause catastrophic damage to our climate.

And instead of warning people, instead of transitioning to becoming clean energy companies, when we had the ability to do so, they chose to bury all of that science. They choose to put millions of dollars into, uh, greenwashing campaigns, and they chose to put millions of dollars into lobbying. So that lobbying against clean energy, um, and lobbying against any type of legislation or regulation that would, um, curb the impacts of their products.

And so when you tell that story, and polling shows it, people are ready to demand action. So you really win by shifting, um, public awareness. And, um, you know, this is something that. Like six year olds know if you make a mess, [00:43:00] you clean it up. The fossil fuel industry made a mess. And now all we're asking is that they clean it up.

Um, I think another big lesson from the Truth campaign is, um, like you've gotta lift up on expected messengers, right? Like we can't just have climate scientists talk and they're very important and I hope they continue to talk, but we can't just have these climate scientists or these climate wonks talking to people and talking to the press.

We also need to hear from our California, uh, high school students that are being impacted. We need to hear from postal workers that are trying to, uh, deliver our mail in 110 degree, uh, heat. We need to hear from, um, like movie theater owners. There's a movie theater owner that I work with in, um, long Island who his movie theater is now flooded three times from like.

Catastrophic flooding in Long Island, which is really not normal. Um, and, and empower these regular people, um, to be the faces of our campaign because [00:44:00] that's what people really, uh, relate to. So when you pair culture and you pair policy, um, you're able to create this lasting change, um, that will remove the fossil fuel industry's social license to operate and make them pariahs and our system in the same way that Big Tobacco is now really a pariah in society, um, because we expose them for what they are and for what they did to us.

And so we're going to do that to the fossil fuel industry as well. 

lexy: Yeah, it's, it's just so disheartening when you, like, you're like. You could have gone in a better direction, you could have done it. There's this like, oh God, this is so nerdy of me. I'm a big fan of Hamilton, the Broadway musical. Um, isn't everyone and my musical theater kid right now is coming out, but um, there's this TikTok trend where they're taking a song from the, the musical and the lyrics are like, he aims his pistol at the sky and Aaron Burr like, screams wait.

And people are using it as like a trend to [00:45:00] be like, I don't know, like an action or someone saying something and, and then it's like, wait. And it's like, that's gonna cause a lot of drama, or that's gonna cause a lot of whatever. And I'm like, now I wanna do that trend talking about big oil and how yes. I'm like, if you knew like you, you were right there.

Like you could just wait. Like just, you were right there and you could have gone in a much better direction. And the fact that. It's just went completely opposite. It is just like, what are we doing? Like it's just, ugh. Makes me, it's crazy. Really grind my ears. 

cassidy: It is. It's actually unbelievable. And for folks that are listening, I encourage you to like, really look into this 'cause it's going to blow your mind.

I mean, like the accuracy at which their scientists predicted exactly what was going to happen to us. I mean, they were using words like catastrophic, great irreversible harm to our planet, serious consequences, more violent weather, more storms, more droughts, more deluges suffering and death like, and, and [00:46:00] so not only were they realizing how bad it was going to be and actually verbalizing it, but like the, the different ways in which we are experiencing it now, they predicted 70 years ago.

Mm-hmm. Um, and why didn't they tell anyone? Greed. That's really the, the end of it. They were making massive amounts of profit and they chose to continue to do so and they shouldn't be allowed to, and they have to pay. Um, it's mind blowing the ways in which money can, um, corrupt people. And, uh, we're now the result of that corruption.

Um, and we could have, we could have waited and done something different. 

lexy: Yeah, no, exactly. It's, I found it really interesting 'cause when I was doing the petition against the Sheen, um, partnership with my school, um, it kind of, you know, it, it, it kind of blew up in the sense that like a lot of people signed it and it got some press.

And I remember one of the members at the school was like, you certainly use this to your advantage. And I was like, um, whoa, whoa, whoa. Can we like back up and remind ourselves that like I. A [00:47:00] lot of people that are doing this in the climate space are doing it because this is what we care about. Like this is what drives us on a daily basis and we're just trying to get more people to also be driven by this.

And so she said that and I was like, oh, my jaw was on the floor. I was like, ex, I know that you might be a not so great person 'cause you're partnering with Sheen 'cause they're giving you money. Um, but me on the other hand, I just, I just wanna change the, the partnership that you're doing to literally just any other brand.

So yeah, like, it's just like crazy, but that other people are driven by it. And then also that like, we don't think that necessarily people are just doing this outta the kindness of their heart because this is what we care about and this is what we're driven by and this is what we need to be doing. Like, I, I, I have talked a lot to people about like.

It'll be okay because the presidency's only four years, which first of all, he's literally trying to make it longer. Um, but second of all, it's the, some of the stuff that is happening in this four year time span is going to take so long to reverse. [00:48:00] Yeah. And it's like we not take it really scary and dark, but like we don't really have these four years to spare.

So No, it's just, it kind of pretty infuriating and, and I just wish that they had waited and that they went in a different direction, but I do too. But now, at least since they did not, let's get them to clean it up. Yeah, exactly. Well, I always like to end my podcast asking what are some top tips you would give to someone who's just starting their sustainable journey to a more Well, no.

Yeah. Their sustainable journey. There we go. 

cassidy: Yeah, that is a great question. Um, well, if I had to give some tips to folks that were starting their sustainability journey, I would say that you don't have to be perfect. Um, I have been working in the climate world for nearly a decade, and I still make mistakes every single day when it comes to my own personal sustainability journey.

Um, we were just laughing about using plastic water bottles, but it's true. You know, sometimes you forget your water bottle and you [00:49:00] genuinely need to buy another. Um, sometimes you fall for greenwashing. Uh, they are really good at doing, um, pr, and that's okay. You don't have to, you know. Flail yourself and pale yourself, whatever it may be.

You don't have to shame yourself. Um, for mistakes that you've made. Really perfect is the enemy of good. Mm-hmm. And, um, it's just about trying to do stuff that is literally sustainable for your own life in terms of you can actually do this every single day. And if that means, um, you know, using a reusable straw and not shopping from sheen and walking or going to your store to purchase something instead of Amazon.

I think that's a really great start. Um, I also think that folks should. Uh, use the resources that are there. I think Lexi, you're a really great example of a creator that can give people, um, you know, that can educate people about how to become more sustainable. And there are a lot of incredible creators out there.

I'm thinking of a creator as who's a part of the Make p Polluters pay campaign. Re [00:50:00] Lauren, her name's Lauren Bash. And, uh, she gives amazing tips about how to be more sustainable and it's things that I definitely haven't thought of myself. And so look for folks like Lexi and Lauren that can teach you how to be sustainable.

Um, and, uh.

I think, you know, the last thing that's super undervalued is the power of communication and the power of talk. And so, um, being a sustainable person in this world and having a sustainable journey isn't just about you as an individual, but it's also getting others on board. I had an incredible friend hangout.

Um. On Tuesday where we were, uh, canvassing for Zoran Momani in New York City, who I hope is our mayor very soon. And, um, I was telling one of my friends about how easy it was for me to transition, even though I live in an apartment in Brooklyn. And obviously I don't own it. I can't put solar panels on my roof, but I'm able to still buy clean energy.

Um, and it's really, you know, not common knowledge that you can do this, but ConEd, uh, does not create their own energy. They buy it from people and they, uh, [00:51:00] buy it from the fossil fuel industry, but you can ask them to buy it from clean energy providers. And I told my friend Cassie about it, and then she went and she told all of her other friends and now.

In three days, I have five more people that are buying energy from, uh, clean energy rather than the fossil fuel industry. And so you can do that in so many different ways when you do something super sustainable and it turns out to make your life so much better, tell your friends. Tell your friends that the fossil fuel industry knew and lied.

Tell your friends about climate Superfund bills. Um, 'cause that's really how this change get made is, uh, from all of us talking. So I think do your best. Um, give yourself grace, look for the help of others, and then give others help as well. And that'd be 

lexy: my advice. I think that's great advice. I am gonna look up how I can change my apartment to be clean energy.

So thank you for that. And you can add a six person to your list of people. Yes. Yay. So literally love Lauren. We hosted a clothing swap this past weekend on Sunday, so she's like, oh, 

cassidy: cool, 

lexy: I saw that clothing [00:52:00] swap. 

cassidy: And I was like, damn. Wish I was in LA right now. 

lexy: I was. You wanna host them more often, so maybe next time you're in LA we can like plan accordingly.

cassidy: Yeah, definitely. I mean, and if you're ever in New York, yes. I've got so much clothes I need to swap with people 

lexy: see, I think that's so funny 'cause this is a conversation I've actually had with another one of our friends, Megan, who's like, Instagram handles activism. Um, she's friends with Lauren as well, but newly I find interesting 'cause it's owned by Urban Outfitters. So I think it's great when you have like a specific event and I literally run from newly, so it's like I'm not all the time, but like when I have something I'm like, I will have a box come.

I definitely think it's a better option. Um, there is an app called Pickle I would strongly recommend, if you haven't heard of it, it's for when you're in a pickle. Um, such cute marketing if I don't say so myself. Um, and it, you can list your own closet and like basically rent out pieces that you own and make money off of pieces that you own.

But then I love that [00:53:00] you pick up other people's closets and you can. Gear. So it's near me. So I did like two pickups just this past week, um, for Halloween costumes. Um, and I literally just like, I was already in, I live in Culver City, I had to like drive to West Hollywood for work and then it was perfect because the two people I was picking stuff up from where?

In West Hollywood. So it's like, it wasn't even an added like I'm driving, it was just like, I'm already there and I'm picking it up. Oh, that's amazing. I had never heard of that, but I'm gonna double it. I like, love 'em and I'm not even like, you know, being paid to say it, I just genuinely think it's the smartest thing ever.

Um, and I think the name Pickle, I was like so confused by it and then they were like, it's for one year in a pickle. And I was like, genius. Yeah. We can do good comms too. Yeah, I think renting is like a better option. Uh, but it definitely like has its faults, you know? Yeah, that makes 

cassidy: sense. That makes sense.

Um, 

lexy: really quickly though, where can people find you guys on social media? Yes. 

cassidy: You can find the Make Polluters Pay campaign. Um, I would recommend [00:54:00] folks go to our Instagram. Our Instagram is at Polluters Pay. Um, we have a ton of fun on there. We work with a bunch of creators. I, uh, sometimes get, um, wrapped into making videos myself and if they're bad like them anyway, I'm trying my best.

They're good. You can also find us at, uh, TikTok at on TikTok at Make Polluters Pay, and then you can also find us on our website polluter make polluters pay.net. Um, and yeah, just follow along and we'd love to have you all part of the movement. We're always posting, uh, you know, actions. We are hosting tons of local events all the time.

We have so many petitions. Um, so there's just a ton of ways for folks to get involved and I hope that you'll follow us and join. 

lexy: Amazing. While you're at it, you can follow me on my socials. My Instagram, TikTok, and YouTube are all my name at Lexi Silverstein.

That's Elliot xy silver like the color, S-T-E-I-N. And remember to live a good life and look fucking good doing it.